As an update on the r/terf_trans_alliance subreddit, apparently one of the other mods thought I was you, Nina. So now I have been mistaken for both of you. 😅
It reminds me of the period on Tumblr when it was common to be accused of being a Cathy Brennan sockpuppet. There is more than one TERF on the internet!
Agreed, Reddit is not great. Fortunately, that’s allowing me to keep an emotional distance that’s kinda helpful when embarking on endeavor that’s as ill-advised as this one. “I might get permabanned from Reddit? You mean I won’t be able to moderate this subreddit anymore? Ohhh noooo. Anything but that.”
You know how gay men sometimes refer to each other as "she"? It's kind of a joking/affectionate thing (usually, sometimes it's snarky).
I've wondered though, how would a "gay" trans man (meaning a heterosexual female who identifies as a man) feel about her gay friends calling her "she"? Could she see it as a term of affection, or would it cause dysphoria?
Anyway, my pronoun policy is to just go by whatever comes easiest to my brain. I try not to put too much thought into it and just go with what comes naturally. So it usually depends on how well the person passes. I'm so tired of going back and forth on what word I should be using and expending extra brain power on something that the person usually won't ever hear me say. I still don't think TWAW or TMAM, but I somehow don't feel any cognitive dissonance calling Blaire White "she" or Buck Angel "he" (to use the quintessential examples of well-passing trans people). I don't deserve any praise for calling someone what they "want" to be called--it's really not personal, it's entirely selfish.
But to be fair, I don't have a podcast, I'm not in any position of importance or influence, so I don't have to worry about the words I'm using affecting the culture war very much.
I think some people enjoy using preferred pronouns verses being afraid not to. It makes them feel like they're in the cool club. Like many of us did for drag queens in the nineties because we were part of a scene.
This is the obvious explanation for some mainstream liberal types, though not a great one for Jesse and Katie.
Ms. Wu chooses to go around in life being known as a “she” as a way to cope with whatever was so unbearable for her about being a “he.” I’m not afraid to call Wu “he,” rather I honor Wu’s request to be referred to as “she” out of compassion for Wu’s coping strategy choice.
I agree. There is a difference between having uncoerced human compassion for a person coping with their own challenges without imposing on others, versus being intimidated into supporting a delusion and a power grab.
Hi Nina and Cory - Re Blocked & Reported - I find the pronoun thing uncomfortable too but I do think there is a good reason. Using preferred pronouns is a useful way of cutting through to The Other Side, avoiding a potential brick wall at the outset, removing that point of contention so they can get on with the business of telling a story to a broader audience. I think it also might help get through when they want to contact trans people and TRA organisations for comment?
On the other hand, I've stopped worrying about pronouns in everyday life. I say what comes naturally to me and correct myself if I feel like it because usually pronouns aren't the most interesting important thing I want to say (not that I say important interesting things very often if at all but I hope you see what I mean.) Tripping over my own language just disrupts my train of thought - as you found in the podcast I think! ;)
I don't really like it when Terfs use it to correct each other in conversation on SMS. It seems yet another way of scolding women for 'doing it wrong'. It's like correcting someone's pronunciation as they are speaking to you - you aren't listening to what they are actually saying, you're only interested in being right. We don't always know how new someone is to the subject, how brave they are, how knowledgeable they are, and telling people off always feels like a bit of a power play to me. It's not very encouraging or supportive to others trying to express themselves.
Perhaps there are different expectations for different circumstances - correctly sexed pronouns in current affairs about sex offenders, sports people and other important factual reporting should be non-negotiable, clear consistent well-explained 'style-guides' in independent media (maybe?) but Terfs correcting Terfs on Twitter seems bossy and unhelpful.
But I'm not very consistent either I don't think. I'm also a pathetic weed, hate confrontation and want all Terfdom to be friends and get along! *insert hollow but mad laugh here*
Thank you so much for sticking with the podcast. Heterodorx was such an early important source of thoughtfulness and solidarity and long may it continue!
(Note: I am shamefully cut/pasting/editing this from a waffly message I sent to Nina on Patreon. Then I discovered I was posting in the wrong place for the podcast. Sorry Nina!)
I love your pod. The one comment I have is that that Hakka made a positive impression to me in the way the dance, in its nature of expression, is a way of dissenting in a quite more respectful way than those extremist groups would in western society. They did that Hakka and then left. Expressed intense antipathy but made no scratch on nobody and let the demonstration move on. I’d really like if this kind of expression would replace the violent mobs of the west that I recall existed on pride parades at my youth.
I think intellectual work or “cost” of figuring out who someone is less burdensome when I know someone’s background.
I love Informed Dissent, it’s my Sat morning listen now. When I hear Ben or Lisa refer to someone with the wrong sexed pronouns I understand that is how they operate. But they are both very clear at establishing if someone is male or female.
I would generally say the same for the folks over at Blocked and Reported. Both Jesse and Katie know what sex and generally establish the sex of the individual they are talking about when they begin discussions.
In a way similar to JK Rowling who goes in and out with her use of pronouns-but clarifies a persons individual sex, based on who believes in human sexual dimorphism.
What I see as a bigger problem is when we start a conversation and then it’s not until 20 mins in or below the fold that we find out “women” are male. This to me is worse than establishing in the first or second sentence that someone is male, but the author will use opposite pronouns throughout.
Cori talks a lot about reaching the marginal 10% in the middle- I believe that there does needs to be a balance/exit ramp for those peoples. I think that’s the first step, to clarify at the top what the facts are. We need to get to a place and environment where sex of subject is clearly defined for the listener or reader, especially when we do not know the author or their background. Once there people can “be kind” because we know the authors believe in sex.
This is the middle ground exit ramp out of complete adherence of gender ideology for most normal folks-many of whom who may have a relative-niece, nephew, or cousin. They are caught in the middle and for the sake of their personal relationships may not have the same strength of Nina to walk away or be exiled.
Stopping mid-stream to write this comment. The idea that Blocked and Reported has "outsourced the cost" to listeners when they use wrong-sex pronouns is such a brilliant point Nina. There is no cost to HIM, and he gets to feel like he is a nice person, a respectful person. To be fair, I do respect much of Singal's reporting and believe his sincerity: I doubt he is mainly motivated by being a "liberal in good standing" as he gave up a lot of that some time ago. He more than likely truly thinks this is the right thing to do. Probably because he has trans identified friends or family he cares for. What's the cost?
But as you point out, the cost is to US. Our brains must flail and struggle as we try to grapple with this smokescreen placed in front of reality. I do wonder how Singal would respond to your challenge? Would he argue that this practice is also no cost to you? How can he argue that? The only way it is not an intellectual and emotional cost to you is if you surrender completely, just give up and picture a "she/her" in your imagination as you try to understand the rest of the story. The only way it is not a cost to you is if you stop trying to remember that it is a "he/him" that is being described every single time you hear a female pronoun.
But then of course you pay another terrible and arguably more significant cost, which is agreeing to lie IN YOUR OWN MIND about something so fundamental with relevant ramifications to the story being told: a person's sex. Female psychopaths are not male psychopaths. As some say, "these are not our crimes." Not that women are never assholes, murderers or even psychopaths, but the sex of a person is usually relevant to the actual story being told. And even when it is not obviously relevent, it is always a salient detail that should not be changed.
You both are heroes to me! Thank you for continuing to give voice to the rational, liberal argument for sex-based rights (in contrast with authoritarian arguments).
I’m somewhat nervous about sharing the following; I’m hoping it lands on you in the same spirit of good will and lovingkindness with which I’ve written it.
Nina, when I heard you mention the dairy ingredients you’re using in your chocolate-making, my heart did these two things almost simultaneously:
1-sank a bit, because as a feminist, I can't help but think about the exploitation of the female reproductive system which is central to the dairy business. (For much of my life, I believed what we’ve all been taught! That cows “give” us milk. But then one day, I realized what a fairytale that was.*)
2-also jumped up a bit, with the hope that you’ll be open to trying your recipe with the plant-based cream and butter that’s now readily available in regular grocery stores. (On a recent shopping trip, I was amazed to see three—yes, three!—brands of plant-based heavy whipping cream in stock: Califia, Country Crock, and Silk.) Can I encourage you to give these alternatives a shot? I’ll be cheering you on! With much love and gratitude. xoxo
*Cows on dairy farms are forcibly impregnated [like all mammals, they produce milk for their young]. When the babies are born, some of the daughters and all the sons become veal [some daughters are retained to replace “spent” mothers]. The mother’s milk is taken and sold. After several cycles of this, their milk production declines. When their existence is no longer profitable, the mothers are sent to the same place as their offspring: slaughter. There are good reasons—ethical, environmental, and health—to ditch dairy. And it’s easier now than ever.
I love the idea that Jesse is "outsourcing" the cost of using wrong-sex pronouns. In his defense (sort of), he isn't completely insulated from the consequences of pissing people off. He still has articles published in major news outlets, and he is writing a book on gender medicine that he wants people to take seriously.
So it's understandable, if maddening, that he doesn't want to seem disrespectful. I look forward to the day when using correct pronouns doesn't lead to the loss of careers and relationships.
Regarding pronouns, shoot me if you like but my approach is to be flexible. It is not cowardice. I write about gender as it affects the Jewish community and Jewish law. I have managed over the past few years to come out as gender critical while retaining a wide range of friends and acquaintances of very varying opinions on this issue: from rad fems who are almost ultras, to true believers in the ideology (some trans-identified, some not). I also do know a few trans-identified people whom I met only after they transitioned and I don't even know their previous names. On my Facebook page, such individuals (shock horror!) sometimes even speak to each other.
To me, language is there in order to communicate. I seek to be understood and speak in a way that other people will be able to hear me -- including other people who do not think the same way that I do. The problem with the pronoun question is that whatever you do, you alienate half of the people listening. This makes pronouns about trans-identified folks intrinsically divisive. Whichever fork you take, half the audience walks out the room and there is no conversation, no understanding.
Recently I did an analysis of how narratives of gender souls are put about in Jewish circles to justify transition. One of the main proponents of this approach is a TIM. I don't agree with said TIM. At all. I needed to refer to said TIM's views. I also did not want the people I really need to convince to turn off the moment I said "he" or "his" or "him". I also knew that referring to said TIM as "she/her" would be inaccurate and also offensive to my TERFy audience. So I avoided pronouns completely and referred to this individual by name. It was not cowardice. It was deliberate. Because I put results above purity.
A lot of us do this in our lives. We have people in our lives who will stop listening to us if we use certain language. So we exercise judgment. The alternative is staying in little echo chambers. I would find that terribly boring and also what would I achieve preaching to the choir?
In progressive feminist circles, we’d sometimes use the term “kyriarchy,” from the Greek kyros, “lord” or “master,” as a more intersectional version of “patriarchy.” This is opposed by its opposite force, the “queeriarchy.”
As an update on the r/terf_trans_alliance subreddit, apparently one of the other mods thought I was you, Nina. So now I have been mistaken for both of you. 😅
It reminds me of the period on Tumblr when it was common to be accused of being a Cathy Brennan sockpuppet. There is more than one TERF on the internet!
Reddit banned me for life for being a TERF. I could make an anonymous account of course, but I hate them so I don't.
Agreed, Reddit is not great. Fortunately, that’s allowing me to keep an emotional distance that’s kinda helpful when embarking on endeavor that’s as ill-advised as this one. “I might get permabanned from Reddit? You mean I won’t be able to moderate this subreddit anymore? Ohhh noooo. Anything but that.”
Please create some merch that says "Stay Marginal"
You know how gay men sometimes refer to each other as "she"? It's kind of a joking/affectionate thing (usually, sometimes it's snarky).
I've wondered though, how would a "gay" trans man (meaning a heterosexual female who identifies as a man) feel about her gay friends calling her "she"? Could she see it as a term of affection, or would it cause dysphoria?
Anyway, my pronoun policy is to just go by whatever comes easiest to my brain. I try not to put too much thought into it and just go with what comes naturally. So it usually depends on how well the person passes. I'm so tired of going back and forth on what word I should be using and expending extra brain power on something that the person usually won't ever hear me say. I still don't think TWAW or TMAM, but I somehow don't feel any cognitive dissonance calling Blaire White "she" or Buck Angel "he" (to use the quintessential examples of well-passing trans people). I don't deserve any praise for calling someone what they "want" to be called--it's really not personal, it's entirely selfish.
But to be fair, I don't have a podcast, I'm not in any position of importance or influence, so I don't have to worry about the words I'm using affecting the culture war very much.
Ultra woman? I grew up watching Ultraman!
All the comments defending wrong pronouns confirm my point: we haven't won.
When everyone feels free to tell the truth without censure, condemnation, or fear, it will signal a win.
Until then, we haven't won.
I think some people enjoy using preferred pronouns verses being afraid not to. It makes them feel like they're in the cool club. Like many of us did for drag queens in the nineties because we were part of a scene.
This is the obvious explanation for some mainstream liberal types, though not a great one for Jesse and Katie.
I hope you feel free to tell the truth! I can refer to Brianna as “she” while simultaneously knowing that she is a man.
Why do you refer to this (or any) man as "she"? I assume because it is unsafe to do otherwise, but perhaps there's another reason I am overlooking.
Ms. Wu chooses to go around in life being known as a “she” as a way to cope with whatever was so unbearable for her about being a “he.” I’m not afraid to call Wu “he,” rather I honor Wu’s request to be referred to as “she” out of compassion for Wu’s coping strategy choice.
I agree. There is a difference between having uncoerced human compassion for a person coping with their own challenges without imposing on others, versus being intimidated into supporting a delusion and a power grab.
Hi Nina and Cory - Re Blocked & Reported - I find the pronoun thing uncomfortable too but I do think there is a good reason. Using preferred pronouns is a useful way of cutting through to The Other Side, avoiding a potential brick wall at the outset, removing that point of contention so they can get on with the business of telling a story to a broader audience. I think it also might help get through when they want to contact trans people and TRA organisations for comment?
On the other hand, I've stopped worrying about pronouns in everyday life. I say what comes naturally to me and correct myself if I feel like it because usually pronouns aren't the most interesting important thing I want to say (not that I say important interesting things very often if at all but I hope you see what I mean.) Tripping over my own language just disrupts my train of thought - as you found in the podcast I think! ;)
I don't really like it when Terfs use it to correct each other in conversation on SMS. It seems yet another way of scolding women for 'doing it wrong'. It's like correcting someone's pronunciation as they are speaking to you - you aren't listening to what they are actually saying, you're only interested in being right. We don't always know how new someone is to the subject, how brave they are, how knowledgeable they are, and telling people off always feels like a bit of a power play to me. It's not very encouraging or supportive to others trying to express themselves.
Perhaps there are different expectations for different circumstances - correctly sexed pronouns in current affairs about sex offenders, sports people and other important factual reporting should be non-negotiable, clear consistent well-explained 'style-guides' in independent media (maybe?) but Terfs correcting Terfs on Twitter seems bossy and unhelpful.
But I'm not very consistent either I don't think. I'm also a pathetic weed, hate confrontation and want all Terfdom to be friends and get along! *insert hollow but mad laugh here*
Thank you so much for sticking with the podcast. Heterodorx was such an early important source of thoughtfulness and solidarity and long may it continue!
(Note: I am shamefully cut/pasting/editing this from a waffly message I sent to Nina on Patreon. Then I discovered I was posting in the wrong place for the podcast. Sorry Nina!)
I don't check Patreon very often, so thanks for leaving this here!
I love your pod. The one comment I have is that that Hakka made a positive impression to me in the way the dance, in its nature of expression, is a way of dissenting in a quite more respectful way than those extremist groups would in western society. They did that Hakka and then left. Expressed intense antipathy but made no scratch on nobody and let the demonstration move on. I’d really like if this kind of expression would replace the violent mobs of the west that I recall existed on pride parades at my youth.
I very much enjoyed this podcast.
I think intellectual work or “cost” of figuring out who someone is less burdensome when I know someone’s background.
I love Informed Dissent, it’s my Sat morning listen now. When I hear Ben or Lisa refer to someone with the wrong sexed pronouns I understand that is how they operate. But they are both very clear at establishing if someone is male or female.
I would generally say the same for the folks over at Blocked and Reported. Both Jesse and Katie know what sex and generally establish the sex of the individual they are talking about when they begin discussions.
In a way similar to JK Rowling who goes in and out with her use of pronouns-but clarifies a persons individual sex, based on who believes in human sexual dimorphism.
What I see as a bigger problem is when we start a conversation and then it’s not until 20 mins in or below the fold that we find out “women” are male. This to me is worse than establishing in the first or second sentence that someone is male, but the author will use opposite pronouns throughout.
Cori talks a lot about reaching the marginal 10% in the middle- I believe that there does needs to be a balance/exit ramp for those peoples. I think that’s the first step, to clarify at the top what the facts are. We need to get to a place and environment where sex of subject is clearly defined for the listener or reader, especially when we do not know the author or their background. Once there people can “be kind” because we know the authors believe in sex.
This is the middle ground exit ramp out of complete adherence of gender ideology for most normal folks-many of whom who may have a relative-niece, nephew, or cousin. They are caught in the middle and for the sake of their personal relationships may not have the same strength of Nina to walk away or be exiled.
Stopping mid-stream to write this comment. The idea that Blocked and Reported has "outsourced the cost" to listeners when they use wrong-sex pronouns is such a brilliant point Nina. There is no cost to HIM, and he gets to feel like he is a nice person, a respectful person. To be fair, I do respect much of Singal's reporting and believe his sincerity: I doubt he is mainly motivated by being a "liberal in good standing" as he gave up a lot of that some time ago. He more than likely truly thinks this is the right thing to do. Probably because he has trans identified friends or family he cares for. What's the cost?
But as you point out, the cost is to US. Our brains must flail and struggle as we try to grapple with this smokescreen placed in front of reality. I do wonder how Singal would respond to your challenge? Would he argue that this practice is also no cost to you? How can he argue that? The only way it is not an intellectual and emotional cost to you is if you surrender completely, just give up and picture a "she/her" in your imagination as you try to understand the rest of the story. The only way it is not a cost to you is if you stop trying to remember that it is a "he/him" that is being described every single time you hear a female pronoun.
But then of course you pay another terrible and arguably more significant cost, which is agreeing to lie IN YOUR OWN MIND about something so fundamental with relevant ramifications to the story being told: a person's sex. Female psychopaths are not male psychopaths. As some say, "these are not our crimes." Not that women are never assholes, murderers or even psychopaths, but the sex of a person is usually relevant to the actual story being told. And even when it is not obviously relevent, it is always a salient detail that should not be changed.
You both are heroes to me! Thank you for continuing to give voice to the rational, liberal argument for sex-based rights (in contrast with authoritarian arguments).
I’m somewhat nervous about sharing the following; I’m hoping it lands on you in the same spirit of good will and lovingkindness with which I’ve written it.
Nina, when I heard you mention the dairy ingredients you’re using in your chocolate-making, my heart did these two things almost simultaneously:
1-sank a bit, because as a feminist, I can't help but think about the exploitation of the female reproductive system which is central to the dairy business. (For much of my life, I believed what we’ve all been taught! That cows “give” us milk. But then one day, I realized what a fairytale that was.*)
2-also jumped up a bit, with the hope that you’ll be open to trying your recipe with the plant-based cream and butter that’s now readily available in regular grocery stores. (On a recent shopping trip, I was amazed to see three—yes, three!—brands of plant-based heavy whipping cream in stock: Califia, Country Crock, and Silk.) Can I encourage you to give these alternatives a shot? I’ll be cheering you on! With much love and gratitude. xoxo
*Cows on dairy farms are forcibly impregnated [like all mammals, they produce milk for their young]. When the babies are born, some of the daughters and all the sons become veal [some daughters are retained to replace “spent” mothers]. The mother’s milk is taken and sold. After several cycles of this, their milk production declines. When their existence is no longer profitable, the mothers are sent to the same place as their offspring: slaughter. There are good reasons—ethical, environmental, and health—to ditch dairy. And it’s easier now than ever.
Copper is best.
I love the idea that Jesse is "outsourcing" the cost of using wrong-sex pronouns. In his defense (sort of), he isn't completely insulated from the consequences of pissing people off. He still has articles published in major news outlets, and he is writing a book on gender medicine that he wants people to take seriously.
So it's understandable, if maddening, that he doesn't want to seem disrespectful. I look forward to the day when using correct pronouns doesn't lead to the loss of careers and relationships.
Regarding pronouns, shoot me if you like but my approach is to be flexible. It is not cowardice. I write about gender as it affects the Jewish community and Jewish law. I have managed over the past few years to come out as gender critical while retaining a wide range of friends and acquaintances of very varying opinions on this issue: from rad fems who are almost ultras, to true believers in the ideology (some trans-identified, some not). I also do know a few trans-identified people whom I met only after they transitioned and I don't even know their previous names. On my Facebook page, such individuals (shock horror!) sometimes even speak to each other.
To me, language is there in order to communicate. I seek to be understood and speak in a way that other people will be able to hear me -- including other people who do not think the same way that I do. The problem with the pronoun question is that whatever you do, you alienate half of the people listening. This makes pronouns about trans-identified folks intrinsically divisive. Whichever fork you take, half the audience walks out the room and there is no conversation, no understanding.
Recently I did an analysis of how narratives of gender souls are put about in Jewish circles to justify transition. One of the main proponents of this approach is a TIM. I don't agree with said TIM. At all. I needed to refer to said TIM's views. I also did not want the people I really need to convince to turn off the moment I said "he" or "his" or "him". I also knew that referring to said TIM as "she/her" would be inaccurate and also offensive to my TERFy audience. So I avoided pronouns completely and referred to this individual by name. It was not cowardice. It was deliberate. Because I put results above purity.
A lot of us do this in our lives. We have people in our lives who will stop listening to us if we use certain language. So we exercise judgment. The alternative is staying in little echo chambers. I would find that terribly boring and also what would I achieve preaching to the choir?
In progressive feminist circles, we’d sometimes use the term “kyriarchy,” from the Greek kyros, “lord” or “master,” as a more intersectional version of “patriarchy.” This is opposed by its opposite force, the “queeriarchy.”
The two of you are my anchor to my sense of humour when almost everything else makes me want to scream.